SPEAKER_00: 1:06

Hello and welcome again to the takeaway. I'm your host, Pastor Harry Barns, and today we're going to be discussing a problem that we have in our society. We live in a time when God's love is talked about everywhere, but not always understood rightly. Most of us grew up hearing that God loves you, and that's true, but somewhere along the way, that message started to shift. It became less about who God is and more about what he can do for us. In John 3.16, we read, For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son. But that verse isn't about how great we are that God would love us. It's about how great God is that he would reveal himself through love. His love is an expression of his glory, not a replacement for it. Now, today I want to talk about how we got here, how our culture, even the church, started to put man at the center of God's story and what it looks like to return to a view of God that's rooted in his glory. So let's get into it. Today I have with me a dear friend of mine, Andrew Fuentes. He is uh somebody who uh leads underground church uh young adults uh gathering in Millville, New Jersey. And last time in our last talk show, we had Brock Bridges on and they worked together at that. How are you doing today, Andrew?

SPEAKER_01: 2:25

Doing fantastic. It's a pleasure to be here. I'm excited to talk about this topic and give my perspective from a young adult's perspective.

SPEAKER_00: 2:34

Yeah, I really appreciate that. So one of the things that has been coming up a lot is the idea of God as love. It is something that I believe is the problem in our culture. Um, not that God isn't love or is love, because we we know that scripture says that he is, like we saw in John 3.16, for God so loved the world. But what has happened is we've, I believe we've started to form an image of God based on love itself and not truly on what scripture says. So I want to ask a question. Why do you think so much of modern Christianity sounds centered on us, our purpose, our happiness, our destiny? What's your perspective on that based on the uh young adults that you work with?

SPEAKER_01: 3:22

I would say that it has to do with how it makes us feel. It has to do with how love and uh being centered on us makes us think that there's something for it, for us, that it was never really truly designed to have. God's love is supposed to bring us to glorify Him, but when we talk about love, we often make it in a way that helps us feel and and think that that we are the focus, that we are the center when God is supposed to be glorified and God is the center.

SPEAKER_00: 4:01

Yeah. Well, let me ask you this. With the um young adults, I mean, first of all, what's what's the age range that you are you guys have there? The age range is 18 to 29 years old. Okay, so early, early, mid-20s, a lot of them. And how many young adults are you dealing with on a regular basis? Anywhere between 20 and 35. Okay. So you're getting a pretty good perspective in in our area. Um do you do you think that this is something the feelings based, right? Because that's what we're dealing with. When we think of love, we think about how we feel and what feels good, what feels right, or whatever. Do you where do you think that comes from in their lives? Like, do you guys talk about that? Is it something in their upbringing? Is it something in the churches they go to? Is it a combination of all of it? Is it a combination or is it just their own thought process of trying to understand or figure out God on their own?

SPEAKER_01: 4:53

It's a mixture of all of them. Um, I think a lot of people have upbringings where they didn't feel loved. And today we live in a society, especially with young adults, where church is a huge thing. So anywhere where they feel loved and cared for, and the focus is love, um, typically ends up feeling better for them.

SPEAKER_00: 5:15

Do you do you think they realize how much of our view or their view of God has been shaped by culture rather than scripture?

SPEAKER_01: 5:23

Some of them. Um, I don't think that the majority would say that, though. I think the majority thinks that in their own mind they have come up with this solution and this understanding of who God is, and they believe it to be true to themselves.

SPEAKER_00: 5:39

Yeah. Do you what what's your perspective on the church as a whole? So um I don't want to point out any one particular church because I think the problem is throughout our culture, throughout our society. So I'm not going to blame a person or a place or anything, but I think in some way we've all been infiltrated with that thought process of God is love and then coming up with our own definitions. So how about this? Did you have you ever asked a question? Or and if you haven't, I would then just ask you, how would you define love? Or how, if you've ever asked that, how would somebody you ask define love?

SPEAKER_01: 6:17

I have been asked that, and I don't ever have a good explanation for it.

SPEAKER_00: 6:22

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 6:23

If I had to explain what love is, I would say it is an action of caring and showing affection towards someone. It is a selfless motive that should benefit or upbringslash care for someone.

SPEAKER_00: 6:44

Okay. Um, so I mean, you're speaking of it as an action, which I think is biblical. I think Jesus said that. I mean, he commands us to love. And if he commands us to love, I don't think he's commanding a feeling. I think he's commanding an action. Um, he said there's no greater love than this, that somebody lays down their life for another. That's an action. Yep. So love is broad, right? It's not a feeling. But I I don't know, and would you agree with this that most people wouldn't define love that way? They see it as more as a feeling-based thing, something they feel or something they experience, not something they do.

SPEAKER_01: 7:19

Absolutely. I think most churches believe that, but the world as a whole 100% believes that as the majority.

SPEAKER_00: 7:25

Yeah. And and we see that in our interaction and worship and everything. It's like, how do we feel what's what's being brought up with inside of us, right? And um not only how we feel, but then how we make others feel. And we think, oh, how I make Andrew feel determines whether I love Andrew or not. So if I make you feel good about yourself, you feel loved. And we define that as love in our culture. But if I make you feel bad, like, oh, well, you're not loving me. But would that be accurate from scripture's perspective? No. No.

SPEAKER_01: 7:58

I think to give an example, I had a young adult tell me that the more worship songs that a church does, the better it makes me feel. Wow. And the feeling is good. Don't get me wrong, I think God loves for us to feel good when we're worshiping him. But the action is so much more important than the feeling. Because whether we feel good or not, we still are supposed to glorify and praise God.

SPEAKER_00: 8:25

Yeah, absolutely. So I want to go into the next segment here, um, and we're gonna keep this going throughout because this is the theme. But basically, I want to talk about real quickly how did we get here? Um, so we know the problem in our culture um is how we define God, like how we look at him and how that impacts us and our culture. So if we define God wrongly, or really what I want to get into, it's not even defining God. Let's make it clear. Defining God's motive. Why did God do all that God has done? And that's everything. Why did he create the universe? Why did he create the world? Why did he create me? That is the question. Like if we can answer that correctly, we can understand our purpose in this world. But if we don't understand that, that's gonna lead us into all kinds of weird places. And the problem is nobody's asking the question. Nobody's even discussing. I mean, I've asked so many people, what do you think? Why do you think God has done what he's done? What's his motive? And I always get the deer and headlights look. Like, well, I don't even know where to begin with that. That's my point. It's like, are we failing? Are churches failing, our pastors failing by not answering or asking the question and then providing the answer to that question, which then impacts everything. And it's leading people to the place where then they have to self-define. They have to say, well, I think God is this or God's doing this, and I think, I think, I think, versus what does scripture say? So by the time we get to the end of this show, I really want to get into what does scripture say so that we can define properly. But clearly the problem is we don't know as a culture why God did all that he did. And we come up with all kinds of weird things. So, how did we get here? Um I would definitely like to start with this. I I've done, I'm not a historian by any stretch of the imagination. This is not my strong point. Um, I'd like to get a little bit of feedback from you and see what you think, Andrew. But um from what I have found, we know the Reformation, uh, which was with Martin Luther when he came against the Catholic Church in the 1500s, that uh it the Catholic Church believe it was by grace and works. Like so man had to do something along with grace to be saved. And Martin Luther came along, and the Reformation was all about bringing it back to uh by grace alone. In fact, there's it's called the five solas. It is we are, it's by faith alone, uh through grace alone, in Christ alone, revealed in scripture alone, for the glory of God alone. Um, all those five things were key to the reformation. And then anything that leaves one of those five points aside is outside the reformed theology mindset. And just as a quick note, I want to say this reformed theology isn't necessarily Calvinism, even though Calvinists, people who believe solely in God's electing for the salvation, are often reformed believers, but being a reformed believer does not make you a Calvinist. There's there's the difference. And we'll discuss that maybe later. And I discussed that in my show throughout also in other episodes. But I wanted to set the stage, and then that was in the 1500s, and then somewhere along the line in the 1700s, from what I read, the uh the seed for the prosperity gospel started to take effect. And these were these were minor, basically where you had churches that were dwindling, losing uh members in their congregation. And the reformation message really preaches the wrath of God and the inability of man strongly, so that we can embrace the grace of God, all that God does. But that message doesn't go well. People don't like to respond to that. So what happens is we start giving a message that tickles the ear and we start preaching the God of love, uh, and we start to leave wrath out, our inabilities out, and what we have to offer or what we can try to do. And that has slowly built into our culture over the past two, three hundred years to where we've now come to the prosperity gospel age that is heavily impacting our society. And we want to I want to talk about that a little bit today about where do we see that in every area of our lives. So, what's your thought? Did you do any study on that? Did you look into that? And what have you found?

SPEAKER_01: 12:56

Similar to you, um, kind of that same timeline, but it was hard to get like a definitive answer on the timeline or who or what really started the shift. What I would say is that pretty much unanimously, I saw online in the late 1900s, early 2000s, we saw that big shift and we saw it really take over. So whatever was planted sprouted tremendously in the last 30, 40, 50 years towards this now love-centered, man-centered faith versus what we saw before.

SPEAKER_00: 13:32

Yeah. Um, what do you think happened particularly, maybe, or and is there anything that sticks out to you that made faith more about personal experience than God's glory from what I found, it was hard to get a singular answer on that.

SPEAKER_01: 13:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_00: 13:51

But you do see that, right? Without a doubt. You see it in everybody, you see it everywhere. Um that our personal experience has become elevated. Uh, and again, I think even the way worship is in church, what we call worship, and I would argue that it's probably not as much worship as we think it is. I think it's more entertainment, it's more emotion-driven. Like we have these worship bands, we have these stages and light and settings, um, even the music being picked to go with the message, like everything is to set the stage of the heart. And and I've heard pastors say this is like, oh, worship is about preparing you, you know, setting you up. And I'm like, well, isn't worship supposed to be the overflow of the heart? Isn't it supposed to be what comes out of us because we can't contain it? And then is it worship only music? What's your thought on that? How do young adults see that?

SPEAKER_01: 14:46

Uh, we definitely see worship as primarily music. I think it's just our generation. We are so used to all these incredible worship songs on Spotify and Apple Music, wherever you guys listen to it. Um, we're also used to just music that makes us feel good. We don't sing a lot of the old hymns. We don't go back to these original songs that were so profound in truth as much as we ought to. Um, but that's, I think, just sadly where our generation has has come from. I also don't think that we've had great leaders to really show us the correct path, the correct truth when it comes to what worship is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 15:27

I think one of the things we see throughout scripture is statements like people went away worshiping. And, you know, they worshiped God and uh Abraham falling down or John falling down as though dead, and just people bowing down before the Lord and that being called worship. Yep. They didn't fall down and start singing a song with their face to the ground. That that was not the perspective. You have to say, well, then what was it right there? It was the reverence and all of God in the moment. Yeah. He was revealing himself to man, and man's only response was to worship as though falling dead. It was our proper response to a holy God. Yes. That's what real worship is. And we've distorted it to think that it's music, not saying that singing isn't is bad. I think there it has its place and it's good, but we have completely made it like that is what worship is.

SPEAKER_01: 16:23

We've made that the headline. The headline.

SPEAKER_00: 16:26

This is it. Praise and worship service, as we hear it all the time. You come in the praise and worship service this week, as if you can't praise and worship God otherwise. And it's the reverence of who He is, and we're not experiencing God, I don't think, on a level that brings us to the place where we respond to God appropriately. Instead, we're going to church, forcing a response and then calling it worship. But the question is, are we responding to what we've experienced of God, or are we doing something in hopes that something will happen? Or are we looking at it as something we offer to God?

SPEAKER_01: 17:02

Yeah, let me answer that. I think that what we hear is the feeling. So to give an example, have you ever heard someone say, Man, I got the goosebumps during that worship service? You know, we we focus so much on when something feels good that when we get the goosebumps or when we feel incredibly overjoyed, we think that that's just God. And sometimes it is. But I also think sometimes it's just because it's a really good-sounding worship service. I think what we need to get back to is the root, and that is the word of God.

SPEAKER_00: 17:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 17:37

When we look at the truths that are intertwined with these songs, that is what should bring us to glorify and worship and praise God, not the feeling, not so much the sound. That's good, and I think God likes that. But the truth of it is what should bring us to glorify Him.

SPEAKER_00: 17:55

Yeah. So what do you think? Um, let's move into the results here. Um, what do you think the actual results are of people? And I want to talk about on an individual basis. Yeah. I mean, I know you you mentor a lot of people, you talk to a lot of people one-on-one. How many of the problems that you see in young adults' lives are a result of misidentifying God's will, God's purpose, God's motive for them and for this world?

SPEAKER_01: 18:27

I see it all the time. The biggest question I get, and this legitimately might be the number one question I get from all young adults, is what is my calling? And that is the biggest struggle that I think all young adults uh deal with, whether it's where do I work, how do I spread the gospel, who do I spread the gospel to, how do I do it? There's so many questions and they don't know the answers. So yeah, there's a plethora of things that we just don't understand as young adults. And sadly, unless they're being mentored by someone that really has that wise understanding, the average church on a Sunday morning doesn't give you that kind of information.

SPEAKER_00: 19:08

Yeah. They're I think they're coming at it, and I I I even adults, I mean, anybody I speak to is how does God benefit me? You know, we have to go back to the root cause and the root sin is that we all have this in us um, that we want to be God. Now, a lot of people are gonna say, No, I don't, Harry. I I don't I don't want to be God. I'm like, Yeah, you do. That's the root of all sin. I will be like the most high God. Every sin comes from that place. That's what Satan's fall was. He saw his beauty and he pride lifted up and he wanted to be like the most high God. And then he deceived Eve and saying, you know, did God not really say this? And he knows the day you eat of the fruit of the tree of good and evil that you will be like him. Yes. Right? That is the root. All sin is rooted right there. We we want to live for our will, our desires, not his, which means whether we speak it or not, we are saying in our actions, I'm my own God. That's what our sin tells us all the time. And I think right there is the problem. And then we formulate a God in our own image. We don't, we aren't, we don't see ourselves as formed in his image. We say, oh, okay, uh, well, I want this or I want to do that, or I think love is a feeling, and I should feel this way. And and here's where I really want to get to is that then we define God's motive as love. This has been the number one, it's either been I don't know, or it's his love. And you know why? I think John 3.16 rings in their ears. It's the verse that just, it's there. It's been for God's so love the world, for God's so love the world. How many times has that been beaten in? But if you misdefine love, then all of a sudden love is for you. I'm the world, I'm in the world, and he loves me, and he sacrificed his son for me, and it becomes all about me. Do you see that? We can't see it any other way because we've already defined the word from our own terms, not from the biblical terms. Now, the statement is true for God so loved the world, but that is not his motive in all things. Uh, I've taught this on many occasions, that his motive in all things is his glory. Yes. Now, that doesn't belittle his love, it doesn't negate it, it actually is intertwined with it. His glory is much more vast than his love. Um, before I answer that, and I've answered this before, but how would you define glory?

SPEAKER_01: 21:49

Glory is to me the exaltation, the worth due to God, to Jesus Christ. It is the outward expression towards God, giving him all that he is due.

SPEAKER_00: 22:04

Yeah. So, and I think just to be clear, it's not our outward expression. It's his outward expression, right? So he, when he is glorifying himself, he is expressing, revealing to us all that he is. And he is, yes, he's love, but he's much more than that. Correct. Right? He does all things in his love, but he's also just, merciful, gracious. He pours out wrath, um, and all these things. You can go down all the attributes of God, and he is, it's true that he's all those things. You know, I one of the examples I like to give is heaven and hell. And so many people see it as heaven is me with God forever, and hell is me separated from God forever. That's not biblical. You know, Ephesians 2 says that we were all children of wrath. We were all like there was nobody who was never not under wrath. Hell is eternal wrath. Yeah, so God is very much in hell, but it is the attribute of God that is just, dealing with man's sin who was unrepentive, and his wrath is poured out then for all eternity. So in his love, he's just. You see that? Like he's lovingly just. We we want to fair God. You know what I'm saying? Well, how is that fair? Or, you know, what about those who never had the opportunity to accept Christ? Is that fair? Um, what's fair is that we all get to go to hell and be under wrath for eternity. That's fair. Um, but he's merciful. And Romans 9, I believe it is, is that he for his own purposes shows compassion, whom he shows passion. He rose up, we told he rose up Pharaoh to show his power, and that there are those who are under wrath so that the children of righteousness may know his glory, may know his power, for his power to reveal himself. He raises people up who are under and stay under wrath. Now, people, God doesn't place them there. He doesn't like, oh, let me put these people under wrath. They are under wrath, they're already there. He leaves them there. Yeah. The question is, why does he remove us from there? You know, it it's I've said this before the question of uh people ask all the time, why do bad things happen to good people? But what did Jesus say? What did Jesus say about who's good? None of us. None of us. He said, Who's good? There's none that are good, but God. You know, none are good. We all deserve wrath. So when we see that, it's supposed to be a picture of wow, I deserve that. Not how is that fair for them? They should get what I get, but we have to stop and realize you don't deserve what you got.

SPEAKER_01: 24:51

Correct.

SPEAKER_00: 24:52

That's what should generate worship. That goes back to the place. What is it's the reverence and awe of God of getting what you don't deserve.

SPEAKER_01: 24:59

Yeah, that love and grace is what should bring us to glory. Yeah. Bring us, bring us to glorify Him, is the correct way to say that.

SPEAKER_00: 25:07

Yeah. So I think the result is, you know, we live in a world where people are going around self-defining God. They aren't looking at Scripture, they aren't asking what Scripture says about what does God say about Himself, and it has a lot to say about what God has to say about Himself. You know, one of the things I've learned early on, I don't know if you've ever heard this, uh, the Bible, basic instructions before leaving earth. Do you ever hear that? No. Now I don't know where it came from or who came up with it. But you know what that is basically saying, those instructions are for me to prepare me for heaven. And I I have learned since I've been teaching for the past five years now, uh, in my studies, I was like, wow, scripture is anything but instructions for us before leaving earth. It is about the revelation of God. Yeah. He is revealing himself through his word so that we can see him and his worth and all of who he is, so that we can magnify him in our worthlessness. It's instructions. There are commands there for us, but those commands are not there because we can achieve them. Those commands are there to show us our inabilities, that we can't achieve them. When Jesus says, for instance, be holy as your Father in heaven is holy, can you do that? I cannot. Neither can I. And anybody who looks at that should be honest with themselves and be like, I don't have that one. But I think what most people do, they look at that and say, oh, it's not about being holy. It's about attempting. That's what God is doing.

SPEAKER_01: 26:38

We're going to fail miserably.

SPEAKER_00: 26:39

Fail miserably, you know, and I'm like, no way. I was like, the law, Paul told tells us, the law was given as a guardian until the seed should come, which is Jesus Christ. That the law suppresses us, like it was showing us our inability. That was what the Jews got wrong. They said, like, I think of the rich young ruler. Uh I think this is a beautiful statement uh that happens. If anybody knows the story, this this rich young ruler comes to Jesus and he says, Lord, what must I do to have eternal life? I love it. It's a great question. He's asking, how? How, what must I do? This is the how. And this is where I think we go sideways. And Jesus corrects the sideways thought. I think people today ask that. How do I get saved? How can I go to heaven? How can I be right with God? Wrong question. Wrong question. And Jesus, and here's what happens. Jesus says, you know, here's the law, blah, blah, blah. And he tells him the law and he says, I've done all these since my youth. And he says, Oh, you want to be perfect? Go and sell all that you have and come and follow after me. And he goes away sorrowful. Now, at that moment, he then turns to his disciples and Peter's standing there, and he says, It is hard for a rich man to be saved. So it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to be saved. And then Peter's response is so important. Peter goes, Well, then Lord, who can be saved? So, how do you think most people in our culture read that right there? What do you think their thought process is when they hear that? Is it materialism that's the problem? Is that how most people look at that? Probably.

SPEAKER_01: 28:14

Although it's really a heart posture. It's an ability to actually follow Christ. Um, but yeah, I think the more that we have, the harder it is to give it up because we're so attached to the world.

SPEAKER_00: 28:27

So this was one of the things that blew me away. And I gotta be honest, I just recently did this study and I was as guilty as anybody else, and I saw what seemed to be like I saw Peter as somebody who left everything and followed Jesus, but that materialism wasn't the physical, but it was in the heart. Like I'm holding on to things of this world. And that's what Jesus was pointing to, and that's what Peter was saying, but that's not what was happening. Uh I had to do a little bit deeper dive, and it always goes back to culture and context and everything like that. And in the Old Testament, uh, riches were the fruit or the evidence of righteousness. God blessed those who were faithful to him. You think of Abraham, think of Job, David, Solomon, you go down the list of the patriarchs in the Old Testament and promises. God promised, hey, if you obey my commands, I will make you fruitful and multiply, and I will bless the land, I will bless you, and you will have riches, and your storehouses will be full, right? So that was Peter's perception. So he was saying if this man who is righteous, who has lived the law and has the evidence of God's favor on him, and if he's not saved, then who can be saved? So he was asking the right question. It wasn't about materialism in as in a negative sense. It was actually about materialism in a positive sense. Yeah. Very different than because why? We've been taught our material possessions are wrong. And I would like to point out that is a prosperity gospel message because the prosperity gospel teaches this you give so that God blesses.

SPEAKER_01: 30:00

Yep.

SPEAKER_00: 30:01

But the result of that is that the leadership or the pastors of those prosperity gospel churches prosper. You don't. All right. So we've heard that message so many times. Physical prosperity is not bad. It is actually favor of God. It's a blessing of God. And it's been distorted. And again, there's yet another result of where it's been distorted. What Jesus then says, I want to point out is he takes away the how. It's not about materialism. It's not about any of that. What Jesus says, you know, with man, this is impossible, but with God, all things are possible. That word right there takes away the attempt. He says, impossible. That word is, Jesus, I don't think randomly says words. I think everything Jesus says is very purposeful. And we can look at it and say, okay, this is coming from the mouth of Jesus. There has to be something important that he's saying here. And when he uses the word impossible, he takes away any possibility of how. There is no how do you get saved? The question is, why do you get saved in the first place? What is it about God that he's doing? And Jesus said, with God all things are possible, that God is doing things that are possible that there are no hows to explain. Yeah. Would you agree with that? I agree. And I think if we could understand that as a people, that God is working in us for a reason, not how we do what we do. You have nothing to offer to it. Your how falls short. You can't be holy as your father in heaven is holy. You're all of God's commands show us that you know, that rich young ruler went away sorrowful. Was it really possible for him to sell all that he had and come and follow Jesus? Some would say, Yeah. I'm like, so was he supposed to come butt naked, sell his clothes too, and literally come with nothing? You know, the reality is he's coming with something. And even Peter later says, like, Lord, look, we've left all and come and followed after you. And Jesus' response was, Nobody has. Nobody's left everything and followed after me. Um, so it really then gets into the why. Why did God do what he does did? And what is God revealing about himself that's far more than just love? What's your thought on that?

SPEAKER_01: 32:10

Um, I would certainly agree as far as everything that you just said. Um, one of the scriptures that came to mind was John 6. I had to look it up. John 6, 44, but it says, No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And it it makes me think of the young ritualer of we can try our hardest, and we will not be able to pursue Christ if the Father doesn't draw us. We don't have that innate ability. Yeah. Um, but can you repeat that question one more time? Um Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 32:40

So it it was really along the lines of we're getting into now what's the real motive of God? You know, what is God revealing about himself beyond love?

SPEAKER_01: 32:53

Well, I know the real motive. I don't know how to answer the question.

SPEAKER_00: 32:56

Okay.

SPEAKER_01: 32:57

But he is revealing something about himself that love should point to. I think if I'm getting the question right, is that God is pointing to his glory, to what should be brought about when we feel his love, when we experience his presence, when we get these different aspects of him, it should all bring back to glory.

SPEAKER_00: 33:18

Yeah. So um I I just did a recent show on the woman at the well in John 4. Okay. John chapter 4 was the woman at the well. And Jesus actually says what the father's looking for. Uh he says, the father is looking for those who will worship in truth and spirit. And I was like, oh, well, there it is. This is what the father's looking for. This is what he's doing. He's he's looking for this. Now, again, it could be looked at as God is giving us the option to choose. Again, I think a lot of people will say that, oh, we have to choose to worship in truth and spirit. Um, but again, I think that loses context that God is creating, he's self-glorifying himself.

SPEAKER_01: 33:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 34:00

We don't have it within ourselves to glorify God. Remember, God is holy and perfect and true. Anything we offer that's less than perfect does not glorify God. Correct. He has to do something to make that right. Jesus glorified God perfectly. Um, he never sinned, he never did anything wrong. What God is doing is, I believe, you think of this woman at the well, real quick, uh, because I just did the teaching on this, but she came to the well in the middle of the day, shameful, isolated, alone, uh, because of her sins and everything else. She was an outcast of culture. And Jesus was already there at the well waiting for her. It wasn't a divine appointment for him as much as it was for her. He had to go through Samaria, scripture says, and he was there waiting for her. She wasn't seeking him. He looked for her, he sought her out and found her. And it was through his commands that he started to reveal her inabilities, he revealed her sin, and then he revealed his grace that pointed to God's glory. And what what he did was he pointed out her sin, her shamefulness, but at the exact same time revealed his grace, his love for her. And she didn't say a prayer. She didn't like say, Lord, come into my heart. He didn't break down this deep theological thing. She didn't have to know something. She was utterly and completely transformed when she met the Messiah right there at the well. When he said, I who you speak to, I am. That's what he says in the Greek, I am. Uh most of the English translations use uh I am he. Yes. But it just says, I am. So he's making a God statement there. And what this woman's response was was beautiful. She runs back to the town, she leaves her water dog, she goes, and that was worship. Right there was worship. Her reverence and all of God produced a running, not away from God, but an overflow of joy of who God was. And what she brought to the town was nothing of herself. She was still that same broken, sinful, pathetic, isolated woman, but now had a joy coming out of her that was unexplainable. And this society, this community saw that and they were attracted to that. They were no longer looking at her shame and her sin, but they couldn't explain the joy. So then what did they do? She says, Come and see the one who should said everything, he told me everything about myself. And they came and saw. They weren't drawn by her sin, they were drawn by her joy, which was true worship. Jesus produced in her what she couldn't produce in herself. And he produced it in her by revealing who he was and who God was in him. And then that produced a joy that pointed back to him. And that was the beauty, is like John Piper, I've said this so many times, again, God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in him. Yes. And that satisfaction produces exaltation, praise, worship in the sense that this becomes worship. Speaking about him, talking about him, living for him is all an expression of his greatness. I do what I do because he's worthy, not because I'm perfect. And all I keep offering is my imperfect, but my heart is set on his worthiness, and that becomes the worship. And it's what he did, not what I did. I'm only offering to him what he produced in me. And that brings glory to him. That brings glory to him. It it shows that he's revealing the vastness of his attributes, that he brings dead men to life. Yep.

SPEAKER_01: 37:37

Can I so with with Romans, it's one of the scriptures that you had written down, actually, but I think what she experienced is what a lot of believers experience when they first feel that draw from the Father, where she experienced that from him and through him and to him are all things. Yeah. She experienced that in that moment. And when whenever you ask someone to give them their story, their story often, in my eyes, doesn't reflect a self-centered gospel. It actually shows the opposite. But the way we think and what we say when that question is asked is often a self-centered gospel. So when you ask someone to give them their story, they'll normally tell you that they were at the lowest level. They were at the worst point of their life and God met them there.

SPEAKER_00: 38:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 38:25

So it was nothing they did. In fact, it should have been the last point or the least amount of time that God should have met them there because they were doing nothing to earn it, to deserve it. And that is the true gospel right there. They couldn't have earned it. They didn't do anything. But when most people give their testimony, it often is I was at my worst and God met me there.

SPEAKER_00: 38:46

Oh, very much so. And again, I think the problem really sets in not before somebody gets saved, but often after.

SPEAKER_01: 38:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 38:54

So, you know, I've thought about this on many occasions with uh the debate between Arminianism and Calvinism. You know, is it us choosing or is it God electing? And and we get stuck in this place of the how one gets saved. But at the moment of salvation, you you know, I know it was for me, I'm sure it was for you. I wasn't thinking about the how.

SPEAKER_01: 39:14

I didn't care how.

SPEAKER_00: 39:16

Right.

SPEAKER_01: 39:16

I just felt the joy. Exactly. I felt the connection.

SPEAKER_00: 39:20

Yes. God did something, God revealed himself in some way that impacted us. He influenced us. I I've said this before. God's influence is perfect. So, for instance, if you meet me on the street for the very first time, my influence or my impact on you is going to determine what you do with me, right? Like maybe, maybe I'm a good person, but I have foot and mouth disease, which by the way is true. And I say a lot of stupid things in my first interactions. Maybe it's because I'm nervous, or maybe it's just because I'm a ding-dong or whatever it is. And I have a tendency to turn people off, but that's not a true representation of who I am. So my influence is pretty poor, you know, it on that level. My influence is more with those who stuck it out with me, learn who I am. And they're like, oh, Harry's heart is actually really accurate. Yeah, thank you. Um, I wish I could fix that first part, but that's the way God made me and it keeps me humble. You're working on it. I'm working on it. But you know what? That's all I can do. I'm I'm not perfect. But God, on the other hand, this is what I think people miss. Sorry about that, my phone's ringing. Um, this is what people miss is that um God's influence is perfect. You know, there's when God intervenes in our lives and he shows up. I think of Paul on the road to Damascus and Jesus revealed himself right there. His influence was perfect. Yes. You could say Paul had a choice, but did Paul have a choice? Because when you meet the risen Lord, you're gonna respond because you're his created being. You were created for his purpose, for his pleasure, and you're gonna respond in a way that's appropriate to him.

SPEAKER_01: 41:05

Correct.

SPEAKER_00: 41:06

Right? And that's what I believe happens at a genuine salvation when we're born again or born from above, is we are now responding appropriately to God's revelation in our lives. We aren't asking how, how is it irrelevant? Because with with man, it's impossible. Correct. But with God, all things are possible, and he's doing what's impossible. And it's not how is God doing it? The question is, why is God doing it? Because I'm not worthy of it. When God reveals his grace to me or to you, the first thing that happens is grace reveals our inability, it reveals our worthlessness and his worth simultaneously. That in that moment, why so many people throughout the scripture, when they saw Jesus or they saw God, they saw the angel of the Lord, fell down on their face is because they realized their worthlessness in the midst of his worth. And the only true response was to fall as though dead.

SPEAKER_01: 42:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 42:01

That was worship. That was what the heart generated. It's what happened. Because what did God say to Moses? If I reveal my glory to you, what would happen? You'd fall dead, right? You'll die. Yeah. I can't reveal all my glory to you. You can't handle it. So even, and I've experienced this, even partial glory. When he veils himself, I almost can't handle it. You know, I think of uh a story, uh Dale Moody. You ever hear of Moody? I don't. So he was a great evangelist, um, what, 100, 200 years ago or whatever. He was uh had a church he was witnessing and to a thousand kids in Chicago, and then the great Chicago fire happened. And the story goes, he left Chicago. Um, he was distraught because he had just given a sermon in Chicago and he had mentioned the gospel, and he says, if you would like to respond to the gospel, come back next week and I'll finish. And then the great Chicago Fire happened. He never got to do it, it destroyed his heart. He goes to New York to raise money, to rebuild the church, and God broke him there. God wrecked his heart right there on the streets of New York City. And I love this. He actually said, the grace and power of God came upon him so strongly, he asked God to relent. Like it was just too much. God, stop. I can't, I can't, I can't, it's too much glory, it's too much grace. That's what grace does. When you are interacting with God, it it destroys you and brings you life simultaneously. Yeah. And God, to ask God to relent of his grace, think about that. Have you ever experienced God on such a level where you ask him to relent? Back off, stop. I can't take it anymore. I'm about to die here. Right? That's amazing. That's crazy. That's crazy. And I think that's something that we should all want. But that is God revealing his greatness, revealing his glory, and that's what he wants to do.

SPEAKER_01: 43:49

Even with Moses, when he came down, he his face shone so brightly. Yeah. You know, I can't even imagine what that would look like today. But we have certainly seen people when they get transformed and renewed by the Father, they look different. They talk and act different.

SPEAKER_00: 44:07

Yeah. So I I a verse I want to read from Isaiah 48, 9, 11, and we'll move into this last segment here. Um, it says, For my name's sake, I defer my anger, for the sake of my praise, I restrain it for you, that I may not cut you off. Behold, I have refined you, but not as silver. I have tried you in the furnace of affliction for my own sake, for my own sake. He says it twice. I do it, for how should my name be profaned? My glory I will not give to another. Right there. And there are many scriptures like that. Ephesians 1, 5 to 6. Uh, we're talking about to the praise of his glorious grace. Uh Romans 11, 36 says, uh, for from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen. Again and again and again, we're talking about it's for glory. Habakkuk 2.14, for the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord as the waters cover the sea. God is about his glory, and the affliction he pours out is for our refining, and he says that's for his glory, to humble us and to make himself greater. Like he's not going to let anybody else take his glory from him. Now that sounds suppressing, like, hey, he's he's destroying us for his own selfish benefit. No, no, he's he's doing it for our benefit. What he's desiring is worship and truth and spirit. Yes. And that truth and spirit, the truth is you are unworthy. The spirit, then, makes it possible for you to worship where you couldn't worship before. Yeah. To have reverence and awe. And that is where the difference is between those who are saved, who who accept and embrace and worship God for the grace given to them that exposes their sin. And then when God's word reveals sin to those who don't want to accept it, those are not saved, right? They're still living in the flesh. And we all once were in that position. So that's the point. We know that God, what he's revealing, his real motive, is his glory. And, you know, I think that's a broad perspective. Now, the last segment here is how should we respond? How do we get to a place in our society where we can teach people, show people, and even ourselves where we respond appropriately? How can believers today start to recenter their faith on God's glory? What would you say you would do with uh the young adults that you lead?

SPEAKER_01: 46:29

Uh, I ask them to look at the scripture themselves. So stop, stop listening and believing everything that the pastors at their churches say. We need to be people that dive into God's word. And if we don't do that, we're going to believe every doctrine, every theological, you know, thing that someone in our circle says, especially our pastors, they have a huge influence on us. So I tell them don't take everything that you hear as truth, as fact, look into it. That is the biggest reason and problem that I think we have today is that we are so dependent on the people that quote unquote do the research themselves that we don't do it ourselves. And that leads us astray. That's why we think that a man-centered faith is real. That's why we think that we have all this ability to do things on our own when the Bible is clear that we can't. We're we're evil, we're sinful, our nature is sin.

SPEAKER_00: 47:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 47:27

So that's the number one thing that I say is I want people to get into the word themselves.

SPEAKER_00: 47:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 47:32

And that starts primarily through discipleship.

SPEAKER_00: 47:36

Yeah. I uh I've pointed at John 14, 15, and 16 a lot, those chapters where Jesus says, Ask anything in my name, um, and I will do it, so that the Father will be glorified in the Son, and then He says, so that you're uh that you may be fruitful, and then thirdly, so that your joy may be full. Our joy is the overflow of his glory, his expression in our lives. And the fruit that we're asking for is to live lives that it that it that come in contact with that, so that we can live in the will of God, not against the will of God. But we have to recognize that we are constantly living against the will of God, which is sin. Anything that is outside the will of God is sin. It doesn't necessarily have to be adultery or theft or murder. It's anything that is contrary to his will. And that's where the question is: what's my purpose in life? How do I live the will of God in my life? The will of God is that he's seeking those who will worship in truth and spirit. And he that that is produced from the joy that Jesus wants to give you, the fullness of joy, that you are who you are, where you are, when you are, because God designed it that way. You know, we're looking for our purpose outside of ourselves, but your life is his purpose. Yeah, like we have to stop doing that and worship in truth and spirit where we are, not where we think we're supposed to be. Yeah, you know, and again, I think that's the point. Like we hear the prosperity gospel all the time of like God wants to bless you, God wants to do this as if God can't, right? But you have to do this. What do you have to do? You have to give, you have to serve, you have to humble yourself, and you have to, you have to, you have to, you have to. It's the house and it's the man-centeredness. But the gospel says, no, surrender. It's about surrender. It's about meeting God right where you are and accepting it and abandoning everything and say, God, I love you for who you are, where I am, with what I have, and allowing joy to overflow through your situation, not because of your situation.

SPEAKER_01: 49:27

Yeah. Romans 12, it says, I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God to present your bodies as a living sacrifice holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. I want to highlight by the mercies of God. Yeah. Because if it was not for his mercy over our life, over our sin, then we would not be able to do that. We would not be able to present our bodies as a living sacrifice holy and acceptable to him. Yeah. We would not be able to have that be our spiritual worship if it was not for his mercy.

SPEAKER_00: 49:57

That's right. And again, what 1 Corinthians 10 31 says, so whatever you eat or drink or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God. Yes. Everything. Like he's wrapping it all up into a nice tight ball. He's like, it's everything you do. What's your purpose in life? Do it to the glory of God, whatever you're doing. Yep. That's the smallest of things to the largest of things. Stop looking for this grand calling. I believe what happens is when we start expressing God's greatness in all that we do, the path gets laid out before us. When you worship God in truth and spirit, he will lay out a path for you that will take you wherever he wants to go. Stop looking like the rich young ruler to the evidence of the spirit. Stop looking for the wealth or the prestige or the stage or the situations or the job, as if like that's the evidence that you're living your purpose in life.

SPEAKER_01: 50:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 50:50

You know, your purpose in life could be to be in prison like Paul was. Your purpose in life could be to go to the cross like Jesus did. Your purpose in life could be to be beheaded. Your purpose in life might be to sit in a room in a basement and do a podcast like we're doing right now. It's who knows? And I'm not saying this is my only purpose. My purpose is to not only worship God in truth and spirit, but to lead others to that place too. And that's all of our purpose, to go into the world, making disciples, teaching them and showing them the things that Christ has shown us. And that's what He's shown me. It's what He's shown you is that I want to help people get to a place where they can have genuine joy in all situations, whether somebody's sick and dying, broken and hurt, lost and unsaved, that you can rejoice and praise God in all of it.

SPEAKER_01: 51:37

I think that also proves, though, that God's main motive being glorifying himself is good for us. Yeah. We we, as we were in our sin, we could never be fully satisfied. There was nothing that could. That's why we in our own lives, even as we're saved, we go to one thing to another because we get bored of something or we don't like something anymore. But when God saved us, he now gives us an ability to be truly satisfied by glorifying him, by by giving ourselves up to him. And that is something we had no ability to do before, which is why glorifying him actually is what is best for us. And John Piper, why he said it, is because we are satisfied in him.

SPEAKER_00: 52:21

Yeah. I think that's the beauty of it. Like I hope everybody hears that today, that God is revealing himself to this world. God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. He made himself known to the world through his son Jesus Christ. That's the idea there. He already chose to reveal himself to this world, and God is most and fully glorified at the cross. We said we see the fullness of God, the fullness of his glory in the face of Jesus Christ. And we see that at the cross, where his full wrath, full justness, full mercy, full grace, and his full love is poured out simultaneously at the cross. It is like the lampstand or the lighthouse in the midst of all of history that points backward and forward to God's glory. You don't see it anywhere else more on display than in that moment. And we live in the joy of that light, pointing back in history, saying that's where God's glory was fully revealed. I think it's beautiful. You know, when we sit when we hear the question of why did Jesus have to die on the cross, because he wanted to express the greatness of his beauty. God is nowhere seen more beautiful than at that place in time, revealing all of who he is to us that we would worship him for that, that he is giving himself to us. This is not us. This is not about us. This is about him. What it generates in us is him glorifying himself back to himself. We are the canvas on which he paints it, brings dead men to life. And that's the point where the evidence of that. So we have to live our lives that way. And I think our ministries and what we do, evangelism and all of it, becomes effective when we let go of the result and just enjoy him for who he is and what he does. It's his word that brings people to life. It's his glory that he's revealing. And we we are the evidence of that. We're his fruit. We're so worried about our own fruit, but we are his fruit. He produced that.

SPEAKER_01: 54:30

And I would also say that when we do give that up to him, we end up seeing the fruit anyway. Yeah. We often do. I'm in discipleship with someone from my young adults group right now, and I am getting the joy right now of seeing him getting the revelation of God's glory. It is being revealed to him currently as we meet on a bi-weekly basis. And it is a beautiful thing. And I think that the more that you guys start to understand the true motive of God, the more that it's actually going to bring joy and satisfaction to you.

SPEAKER_00: 55:01

Absolutely. Awesome. Um, you have anything else you want to add before we close up today? I think that's good for me. Awesome. I appreciate it. All right. Do you want to close us in prayer? Yes, sir. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_01: 55:12

Heavenly Father, you are just so good. God, you have in such a way crafted this world and us in such a beautiful manner. And God, it is such a beauty when we get to be a part of your masterful plan to the masterpiece that is your glory, um, your love, Lord. And while we struggle with hard questions of, I think, deep theology over hundreds and even thousands of years, Lord, we need your spirit to come and help us. So, Lord, would you help us to continue to search your scripture, continue to dive deeper to know the real truth? Lord, we don't want to be led astray. You warn about it all the time in scripture, about false doctrine, false teachers, Lord. Would you help us help us discern when something's off? Help us discern when something is untruthful, God. We we need you on our own will. We are so far from being able to do the things that you want us to. We're so far from being able to glorify you. But alongside of you, with your help, with your spirit, we can do so much more. So, Lord, we we thank you for this topic of your true motive. We thank you that you have been revealing to Harry and even through Harry, to myself, and through your scripture, to be able to understand that your glory is something that is beautiful. It's not this narcissistic, self-centered thing that like doesn't include us. It actually brings satisfaction to us as we glorify you. So thank you that we get to partake in that. Thank you that we get to partake in your glory and and feel the beauty of it, feel the weight of it. You are a good God and you care for us. You hand picked us, Lord. So just help us. Help us going forward to search your scripture, to know your truth, and to spread your gospel. We love you, Lord. It's in your name we pray. Amen.

SPEAKER_00: 57:16

Amen. Thank you for joining us today, Andrew. My pleasure.

SPEAKER_01: 57:19

Thank you, Mary.