Speaker 1: 0:09

In this episode, pastor Harry Behrens is joined once again by Pastor Donnie Garrison as they delve into the thought-provoking question why should we engage in evangelism if God has already predetermined who will be saved? Drawing from Pastor Harry's previous teachings in Ephesians, it is evident that God has chosen and empowered us with his spirit to lead a life that glorifies him. The conversation naturally evolves to the topic of evangelism and seeks to clarify why we should engage in it despite God's preselection of those who will be saved. Join Pastor Harry and Donnie as they aim to provide clarity and understanding on the vital role of evangelism within the framework of God's sovereign will.

Speaker 2: 0:55

Hello and welcome again to another special edition of the Takeaway. I'm your host, pastor Harry Behrens, and with me once again is my brother, my friend Pastor Donnie Garrison. How are you doing today?

Speaker 3: 1:03

I'm doing well. Thank you for having me on, and I hear that you're doing pretty well. Also, I hear you have a new book coming out. What is that about?

Speaker 2: 1:12

I do. It's called Chosen by Design. It comes out August 9th, so we're just a few weeks away from that launching and I'm really excited about that. So it's just a result of the study I've been doing through Ephesians that is now available on our podcast. It's launched every Thursday and it's just something that God put on my heart to do.

Speaker 3: 1:30

That's awesome. So is it the whole book that you have written on Ephesians? Is it all six chapters covered?

Speaker 2: 1:36

It is. It's basically a commentary, but it's a slightly different take on it. I focused on the theme of Ephesians more than anything. So it does walk you through, explains everything, but I saw Ephesians as the roadmap to the believer's life and I wanted to point out God's design and the purpose for each individual's life and highlight that for those who read the book. So for those who are looking for purpose in their lives, purpose in their relationship with God, trying to understand the joy of the Lord, trying to have assurance of their salvation, trying to understand how election works and answer all these questions, the book does that.

Speaker 2: 2:14

I really wanted to highlight that, as Paul points all these things out. So that will be available on Amazon and Apple and you can also find it at chosenbydesignnet, which is our website. So, again, chosenbydesignnet, and it'll be available on ebook and paperbook. That is awesome, Awesome, yeah, I appreciate that. So, with the question today, our audience had sent in a question of why evangelize is what we're going to be covering today, and that was a result of our last show on our choices and illusion, and we discussed God's election process and that and God choosing people, choosing whom he will choose, and our audience wants to know why should we evangelize if God is going to do what God is going to do anyway? So I think, before we get too deep into it anyway, so I think before we get too deep into it, can you define evangelism on a basic level?

Speaker 3: 3:15

just a basic understanding of what is evangelism. Well, evangelism is something that I'm sure everyone has read in books and different methods, and I'm sure it's something that people have tried and they failed and they've been scared to death to do, like myself in time past. But what I've come to find that evangelism at its uh, you know, most basic level is sharing the love of Christ with people, sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ, you know, letting people know that there is a way of salvation through Jesus Christ.

Speaker 2: 3:43

Yeah, yeah, and I think that's that is how most people would see it, I think. On another scale, though, I think when most people think of evangelism, they can't help but think of Billy Graham, of course. Of course, you know, I mean, everybody knows who Billy Graham is. I think I've even heard that he's as popular, if not more popular, than Jesus Christ himself, in the sense of his ministry and what he's done. Like the name Billy Graham is so out there that everybody knows who he is and what he's done. And we I think our audience has this picture of evangelism as being that Right, that they must be that, and I think most people feel they can't be or don't know how to be, or if they attempt to evangelize, they fail. So there's a sense of failure. So I think we want to talk about a little bit is how should we understand our failures in evangelism? Is failure okay in evangelism? Is it part of evangelism, and how should we look at that?

Speaker 3: 4:41

Well, I mean, that is a big part of evangelism failure. I mean, over the course of my time, I believe that I have encountered just about everything you can imagine in evangelism. I've had the person that didn't want to hear me basically cuss me out, walk away. I've had the person that asked me a question and stumped me and I had no answer for them. I've had the situation where I freeze up and I don't know what to say. I've had the situation where I freeze up and I don't know what to say.

Speaker 3: 5:06

Right and through it all, what God has taught me and what I've learned is that it's not about me, it's about God. Right, I am just a vessel of God and he's just using me for his glory. Right, and when I go out and I do share the gospel with people, it's having that mindset that if I fail, I didn't really fail because I set out to do what God wanted me to do and if it's successful, then it's because that's what God wanted it to do. Ultimately, god is in control of everything. Right, one plants, one waters, but God gives an increase. So when we go out, we're going out just trying to do what God wants us to do for his glory.

Speaker 2: 5:46

Yeah, you know. Paul said in 1 Corinthians 9.22 that it's about sharing with those whom he evangelizes the blessings. He says so 9.22,. He says To the weak I became weak that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people that by all means I might save some. So what he's saying is like I've become all things to all men to share the gospel so that I can share with them the blessings. So Paul had received something. It sounds like he's sharing that with them and he's getting something in return. I mean, isn't that what it sounds like? What's your thought?

Speaker 3: 6:27

I agree. I believe that when you share the gospel, you are being obedient to the word of God and you are bringing glory to God, and in doing so, you will share in the joy that comes from that, whether the person receives Jesus Christ or if they don't. The joy comes from knowing that God is pleased with you and he confirms that with you within your spirit. Right, yeah.

Speaker 2: 6:50

So I think you know again, part of the process is you know, we know we want to get that joy, or Paul was sharing that joy. It's part of the process is sharing a joy that we must have to be able to share. You got to have it in the first place, right? The second part of that is Paul also says in Romans 6.13, do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. You know Paul realized that he was also an instrument of God, that he was being used by God.

Speaker 2: 7:25

Instruments don't use themselves, they don't play themselves, they don't accomplish anything in and of themselves. They require somebody to use them, to play them, to pick them up and do with them what they are meant to do. And Paul realized that. You know it's interesting because in Acts 9, 15, it says but the Lord, this is Jesus. But the Lord said to him go. And this is talking about Paul. He's talking about him, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. So Jesus is saying here that Paul is a chosen. There's that chosen again. So it's important that we understand that that Paul was chosen by Christ to be an instrument that then God was going to use to glorify himself. And then Paul received that joy. Now, what was Paul's part in that? It goes back to 1 Corinthians to share the joy. Now, what did Paul do in any of that? What was Paul really doing?

Speaker 3: 8:20

He was just sharing and being obedient to what God wanted him to do. Really, it wasn't his power, it was just I'm a vessel, I'm an instrument. God play me, use me right. It's just like in Ephesians, chapter 2, that we are his workmanship. Created in Christ Jesus unto good works, we are going to do the works, the good works that God has preordained for us to walk in. We're his masterpiece, we're his poem. Oh, his poem.

Speaker 2: 8:45

That's it. I cover that in Ephesians, chapter two, and I think that's one of my highlights I mention it all the time in church is that workmanship in Latin is poem, which means poem, and it could be translated as we are his poem, not just some clay thing that we're thrown together thoughtlessly. I was like, let me just make something here. It's like a poem is thought out.

Speaker 2: 9:10

I think if somebody you love and you write a poem and you want to share it, we are his poem and he's working that out and he's doing it to share his love with us, to show us how much he loves us, and to share it, to glorify himself and to allow us to take part in that. You think about your wife, for instance. Right that you do the things you do, but you enjoy it with her, don't you? I share it, you share it. You share it Even though you're the one so you take her out to dinner. You're the one who took her to dinner to give her joy, but then you receive joy because of her joy, correct? So it goes round and round. And that's what God is doing. He's sharing his joy with us, and then we get the joy, and then he gets more joy pouring himself out, and I think that's really awesome. And that brings me to my next question is the real reason why do we evangelize? What is the number one reason why we evangelize?

Speaker 3: 10:04

What's it for? Well, we've evangelized for the purpose of bringing God glory. It brings God glory when we go forth and we share the word of God, no matter how we do it. It's all about bringing God glory. And to me, when I go forth and I share the gospel, whether this person receives it or they don't receive it, like I said in the beginning, it's something where I know God is glorified and I know that he's pleased with me and therefore I have joys letting me share in his joy, right?

Speaker 2: 10:27

Yeah, I think it's important to note too. I have to say this all the time because I think so many people misunderstand this. We hear glory, we hear the word glory all the time God's glory, god's glory, god's glory. But I think when I realize, when I ask people, well, define glory for me, most people are like, well, I don't know. They start to hesitate and it's like, oh, you've heard it a million times but you never really thought about what it is. And I wanted to just share that real quick, because God's glory is the expression of his holiness. That's what it is. He is expressing his holiness.

Speaker 2: 10:57

And the next question that should rise is well, what is holy? What is his holiness? And holiness is perfection. It's his perfection. Like everything God is, is perfect. His perfect attributes, his love is perfect. He forgives perfectly. His grace is perfect. His mercy is perfect. He forgives perfectly. His grace is perfect, his mercy is perfect. His justice is perfect, his wrath is perfect. You know the angels in heaven when you go read in Revelation, they go around His throne and say Holy, holy, holy is the Lord, god Almighty. They don't say glory, glory, glory is the Lord, God Almighty, holy, his glory is the expression of that. So if he is glorifying Himself in us and through us, then what we are doing is allowing him to express his holiness, because we're told to be holy as he is holy, but we can't be. But what we do when we glorify him, we allow his holiness to flow through us. And people don't see us, they see his perfection. Would you agree on that?

Speaker 3: 11:46

I absolutely agree. I think a great scripture text to go along with. That is where Paul speaks about how he has been given this treasure of the gospel message to go forth and preach it. And he says but I have, we have received it in earthen vessels, clay pot. Right, we're broken and prone to shattering, but God has given us this treasure in a vessel that really is weak and broken. And what God does is he takes that clay pot and he transcended, transcended and he glorifies himself through the clay pot.

Speaker 2: 12:21

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 12:22

And they're really. What he's doing is verifying that human human beings have no power, but my power transcends their power and people will see me through their brokenness, that's right.

Speaker 2: 12:35

That's right when he means he's raising us from the dead. He's taking us from nothing. We were dead and he brings us to life and therefore he's glorified, because people will see us and say you were this and now you're this. And evangelism? I explained this in my book. I believe evangelism is like a baby crying. Jesus says one must be born again if they're to be saved. And he says, like the flesh, when a baby is born, you know they're alive. What do they do? They cry.

Speaker 2: 13:03

Well, evangelism is when you are born in the spirit. It's a sense of what's different about you. Well, you cry, you glorify God. Something comes out of you that didn't come out of you before, when you were dead. You never glorified God, you never praised him, you never proclaimed him, exalted him or anything.

Speaker 2: 13:18

But now evangelism is just that it's not so much the intent that you have this ability to persuade people to come to Christ, but you can't help but to proclaim his greatness. That's, ultimately, what evangelism is. You're just. You can't not do it Like a baby, can't not cry, you can't not evangelize. You can't say I can't evangelize, I can't glorify him. I have to, I must. That's what Paul says. I'm sharing this, I must do these things, and that that leads to the place of persuasion. Some will say you know, there's so much more in the Bible about persuading people to come to Christ than it is about God choosing. But that persuasion, I mean, would you say that we can really persuade people in the flesh? Like, are we really able to persuade people to come to Christ?

Speaker 3: 14:05

No, I think the Bible is pretty clear that human effort and human will is not going to get the job done. But I believe that what Paul is talking about when he talks about persuading a lot is understanding that he doesn't understand or know who the elect are. He doesn't know who's going to be saved, who's not. So he's going to preach the gospel to all people and he's going to try to persuade everybody because he knows not who's going to be saved.

Speaker 2: 14:30

That's right, that's how I see persuasion and it flows from his joy. Yes, he's just. Ultimately it's shared joy. It goes back into first Corinthians. He said I just want to share this joy. I want to share what I received from God with as many people as possible. So it's not about whether they're elect or not elect. We just assume that they are all potentially elect because, we don't know, we leave that part to God. But that doesn't change the fact that we want to share this joy. We've all experienced an amazing meal, entertainment or something, and then what do we do? We go share it with people we love. Why? Why do we do that? Because we want them to take part in it, so that we can have what Shared joy. We want to share that joy. You and I have a great relationship because we have the shared joy in Christ. We've experienced the same thing. So when we talk the joy is amplified, like. My joy is much greater sharing it with you than it is by itself.

Speaker 3: 15:25

Yeah, and I think that's what the psalmist David was saying simply when he said oh, taste and see that the Lord is good. Oh, yeah, he is not saying in some mundane voice oh taste and see that the Lord is good. No, he is shouting that oh taste and see, he's like. I want you to taste what I have. This is amazing, yeah Right.

Speaker 2: 15:45

You know, I think of just a funny side note. I think of your wife, because she's really picky with food and stuff and my wife's a baker. But I remember when we first met her, she didn't want to try anything. She was like no, no, no, no, no, no, no. But we were like taste and see, just taste. And she was like no, no, no, no, no, no, no. But once she tasted like that first thing, she was like oh, this is amazing, know it tasted this good? And then, since then, she's progressed in the things that she eats. Right, she's opened up her mind to trying new things and that's the idea. It was shared joy.

Speaker 2: 16:20

It's like you are missing out. I can't make you eat this, but I promise you, once you do, it's going to change your life, and that's what evangelism is saying and what we're hoping that it does is that just taste. We're not saying don't, you don't have to consume, just taste it, Because once you get a taste of Jesus, you can't untaste it. You know it's, it's there, it's on your palate now and you're just going to crave it like sugar. It's going to be there and you're going to want more. And that's where your faith really starts to play in and you start taking deeper steps, or more steps of faith that are greater, you know, in your life, because you want more of that, you want to see God do the impossible. Essentially, you know, I think of George Mueller.

Speaker 2: 16:59

One of the greatest books that I ever read outside the Bible was about George Mueller, who lived a couple hundred years ago, who started orphanage. This is a man of great faith and he just prayed and asked God for everything. And God provided but it was challenging increased his faith, which increased his joy, which increased his desire to share that with more people so that they too would do the same and experience that joy. So that brings us to the process. Really, then the how, how do we want our audience to understand? We know now what evangelism is. We know the why to glorify God and to take part in the joy. But the how, like how can we help people get to the place where they are, to a place of effective evangelism, where this is a routine in their lives?

Speaker 3: 17:52

Well, I believe that the answer to that is pretty simple in terms of what Paul said when he said either circumcision or uncircumcision, availeth nothing but faith. Working through love and I believe in what I have found in my own personal life with evangelism is to allow my faith to be lived out through love. And what that simply looks like is on my job or in my home. Well, just an example on my job, I had an individual that hated God, didn't want nothing to do with Jesus Christ, so I began to bring this person coffees in the morning and we began to talk, and then I bought him lunch and I bought him breakfast and it did. Yeah, it took some of the money I had to open up them doors, but it's not my money anyway, it's God's money, right?

Speaker 2: 18:40

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 18:41

And after about, I'd say, 90 days. One morning I was in my church and I look in the back and this man is sitting there and after service, everybody leaves. I go outside to start my car. It won't start. Well, there's a car left on the other side of the building pulls around. It's him. He waited for me and he jumped my car and we got an opportunity to talk about Jesus. This man got saved. That's awesome and that's simply from allowing my faith to be seen through love, loving acts, kindness, buying him coffee. It opened the door for God to work.

Speaker 2: 19:15

How much did prayer play a part in this? A?

Speaker 3: 19:18

lot. I prayed for him all the time. I prayed that God would open that door of communication. How would you say our audience should?

Speaker 2: 19:24

pray if they want to be effective evangelists. I prayed for him all the time. I prayed that God would open that door of communication. How would?

Speaker 3: 19:29

you say our audience should pray if they want to be effective evangelists. I would say that they should pray that God would use them for his glory, so that they would be vessels of honor that bring him glory and honor and that they would be seeking to have joy through it.

Speaker 2: 19:47

Yeah, you know, jesus says at least John, chapter 15, he says ask anything in my name so that my father in heaven is glorified and that you will bear much fruit. So our fruit bearing is to glorify God. And when God is glorified, jesus says and then you will receive the fullness of my joy. So this is full circle thing and that's where weified Jesus says and then you will receive the fullness of my joy. So this is full circle thing and that's where we want to get stuck as Christians. We want to be in that place, like our motive should be continually to glorify God. Jesus promises to answer our prayers that we bear much fruit and that fruit is in evangelism sharing that joy with other people. So God, make a way. God, send people to me.

Speaker 2: 20:23

You know I've had people just walk up to me. I've had so many instances in my life. It's just a matter of being available. Like, are you available? Are we making ourselves available for God and just saying you know, whatever happens, are you at the grocery store? Somebody walks up to you and starts talking to you? Are you thinking about I need to get home so I don't have time to talk to this individual? Or do we make time and it's that making the time saying this is God picking me up to play me as an instrument. Right now it's inconvenient for me but it's convenient for him. He's like I'm bringing the increase now and we need to be willing and ready to operate in those moments.

Speaker 2: 20:57

You know, peter says in 1 Peter 3.15, but in your hearts, honor Christ, the Lord, as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason, for the hope that is in you. Yet do it with gentleness and respect. So we have those acts of love, those little things that we do, and when somebody says, why do you do what you do, we're to be prepared to say this is why I do what I do. And that act of defense is not to be defensive, like we have something to be defensive about, but it's to say this is who God is. I was dead and he made me alive and this is the joy I have. And then share the joy. Share the joy that God gave you with other people, you know, just like that meal or entertainment or a vacation or whatever you did. Just share it and don't worry about whether they receive it or not, like I couldn't make your wife eat the food that was put before. But she took that step of faith and trusted us because of the love that she had for us. She trusted that we weren't putting something nasty in her mouth, right. And so she took the step and she was amazed by it.

Speaker 2: 21:56

Well, people aren't going to taste Jesus unless they experience genuine love first, because they've already made up their mind. Most people have heard of Jesus and they've already made up their mind who Jesus is or who Christians are, what the church is, and they already act on that, and it's already in a negative way. They need to experience something different. They need to experience genuine love. So it's those little things that we need to do Buy somebody a cup of coffee, take somebody out to lunch. Honestly, just pray for somebody.

Speaker 2: 22:26

I can't tell you how many times like I had just the other day. I came out of physical therapy and this guy coming here I'm on crutches and this guy coming out behind me on a walker and I hold the door for him one handicap holding the door for another handicap and I said, man, can I pray for you? And he said yeah, and I just put my hand on his shoulder. I prayed for him and another lady came out the door. She said see, I told you God was with you. I didn't even know prior to that that this nurse was talking to this gentleman, encouraging him that God is with him, literally just seconds ago. And I was faithful, just, I'm going to pray for you right now. And I just prayed, encouraged him and said God's going to use you. And she walks out amazed she's blown away because she was.

Speaker 2: 23:07

I was just telling this guy God is with him. And then here you are praying for him as he walks out the door, showing that God is genuinely with him. I mean the timing of that. You're talking 30 seconds difference and we're not walking out at the same time. It's things like that. You don't know, and we had shared joy walking away from that. So that's what we're to do Be faithful, let God bring the increase. We plant the seeds, another one waters, but God brings the increase. Do you have any final thoughts that you want to share?

Speaker 3: 23:37

Well, if I could give any final thoughts, it would be this Don't be afraid, don't be scared to just tell people about Jesus. And if you're nervous or scared in any way to tell people about Jesus, just let your light shine and love people. Let your faith be seen by your loving acts and then, like I've experienced many times, many doors will open for you to be able to share Jesus comfortably, where you won't have to be scared. If you are a scared person, yeah, that's awesome.

Speaker 2: 24:11

I really appreciate that man. I think this was a great conversation. I really hope this helped our listeners to understand better why we evangelize, that ultimately it's for God's glory and our shared joy in that we are getting something out of this and it's okay. I think so many people have come to the place where they think that you know, we're just living for God and we don't get anything from that, but we get so much. We get so much from it and we don't deserve it. I would agree we don't, but we do Nonetheless. God is giving it to us because it's his glory, and his glory is not something to be sad about. It's not something that is for him. Only. He's saying I want to share this with you. His glory is infinite because he is infinite and he's overwhelming. He created us to express his glory as an outward thing. He doesn't need anything from us, so that's really exciting.

Speaker 2: 25:03

So if you have any questions to our listeners today, if you have any more questions, anything follow-up, something we didn't cover today, you want more detail on something? Please go to the description of this podcast, to the text, us link. Send us a text. I can't respond back to it as a one-way street there, but we do get your questions and we definitely want to do future shows based on those questions. We want to answer them for you in a way that helps you grow closer to Jesus and your relationship with him that brings glory to God. So we thank you and appreciate you, our audience.

Speaker 2: 25:27

So let us close in prayer as we glorify our Father in heaven. Father God, thank you so much for this time that we've had together. Thank you for your word. We thank you for your glory and for your shared joy that you are bringing increase in our lives for your benefit and ours. Even though we don't deserve it, you're doing it anyway, god.

Speaker 2: 25:48

I pray for our listeners today that they would be willing to take that step to love people well, to do those little things like buying a cup of coffee, talking to somebody on the street, being willing to make time for those who come to them and ask them why do they love the way that they love, and that we would just be a people open to responding to that, being ready always to give a defense for the hope that it is in us, so that you get the glory and we receive the joy, god, and that we would just live in that space in our lives until the day you come and bring us home. So, father, open the eyes and the ears of our listeners and help them to grow and to learn and to listen to be effective in evangelism. Father, we love you, we thank you and we praise you in Jesus name Amen.

Speaker 3: 26:33

Amen.

Speaker 2: 26:35

In our next episode we will delve into Ephesians, chapter four, exploring the invaluable role of leaders as a gift to the church. God divinely appoints these leaders to equip us for the specific ministries that he has prepared for us in the church to reach a lost world. This preparation is crucial for all of us to effectively represent Christ as his ambassadors. 2 Corinthians 5, verses 20 to 21. Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, god making his appeal through us. We implore you, on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God For our sake. He made him to be sin. Who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. As a reminder, we appreciate your feedback and encourage you to send in your questions by using the text us link located in the description page of this episode. Your thoughts are instrumental in helping us produce future episodes, so please keep the questions coming. God bless and we'll see you next time on the Takeaway.